The following is a transcript of an interview with Utah Governor Spencer Cox, a Republican, and Colorado Governor Jared Polis, a Democrat, broadcast on December 3, 2023.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to the co-chairs of the National Governors Association, Spencer Cox of Utah and Jared Polis of Colorado, and their Disagree Better initiative, which aims to encourage civil dialogue among America’s leaders. Hello to both of you.
GOVERNMENT SPENCER COX: Hello, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we – we like to try to – we like to try to bring civility back – into politics. Although I have to say a lot of what’s going on in the world makes it difficult sometimes, I think, for people. And one of the things I want to address directly, first with you, Governor Cox, is that the current conflict in the Middle East has stoked tensions in this country, arguments, and we often see it play out on university campuses, for example. I know you’ve told Utah state colleges to remain neutral and stop commenting on current events. You said: I don’t care about your position on Israel and Palestine. No matter your position on Roe v. Wade, we don’t need our institutions to take a stand on these things. It just looks like agreeing to not disagreeing at all.
GOVERNMENT COX: No, no, it’s exactly the opposite. In fact, if you look at what we published that was unanimously voted on by our state’s Council of Higher Education, the institutions themselves have to be neutral for us to have these disagreements. We actually want more disagreement on campus, there is a better way to do it. We can disagree without tearing each other apart. This was part of a free speech initiative we’re working on in this state. We want more students on campus to engage in this type of dialogue. We want more politics on campus. Unfortunately, in the United States, too many universities have not followed the Chicago Principles outlined many years ago. They make very strong, very political statements, and end up silencing dissent or disagreement on campus. We want campuses to be a place for intense discussion. That’s how it was when I was growing up. I think we’ve all had wonderful experiences and we want less cancel culture on campus. So, free speech means that you must allow others to disagree, even if those opinions are very unpopular.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Governor Polis, is this how you’re handling things in Colorado regarding this issue?
GOVERNMENT JARED POLIS: Yeah, well, look, the other… the other part of this. The second part is that whatever your beliefs, you should be safe, whether it’s on a campus, whether it’s in a city, however you express your opinion, you shouldn’t be afraid to march from one side of campus to the other. wear a Jewish star around your neck, or if you are a Muslim American. There is therefore a positive responsibility which falls of course on our universities, but also on our cities and others. For example, we just had a major Jewish conference, the Jewish National Fund in Denver, major efforts, the city of Denver, the state, to keep the participants safe. And there was also room for people to protest, they were able to express their freedom of expression and no one was hurt. And I hope it led to some conversations.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Some would say there is a moral imperative to speak out. You know, in the college town of Burlington, Vermont, we saw these three young men brutally shot, one unable to walk, Palestinian Americans, we saw the rise of anti-Semitism well before October 7, but even more, it seems like a flood afterwards. So how do you balance that in your message to your state’s college leaders?
GOVERNMENT COX: I think it’s very important. And that’s exactly what Governor Polis said. It’s about ensuring people’s safety. What, you just gave an example where that didn’t happen. We absolutely need to talk about the protection and safety of people on our campuses. It’s very different, Margaret, than taking a position on a political issue, which is happening all over the country. And it’s ridiculous what’s happened on our campuses, when it comes to… that you see it all the time actually. You’ve seen university presidents very willing to speak out on any issues of the day, as long as they lean in a political direction. But then as soon as Israel and Hamas happened, there was silence on all campuses, because if we come out in favor of Israel, then we might offend, you know, a very vocal party of our campuses. It’s… it’s embarrassing, and it shouldn’t happen. It is better for the institutions themselves to remain neutral in appearance, this is nothing new. This is a long-standing thing on our campuses, this should happen to protect our students so they can have these in-depth debates. We want this debate to take place on our campuses.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, two pro-Israel groups, the Anti-Defamation League and the Brandeis Center have written to 200 different college presidents asking them to investigate a group called Students for Justice in Palestine, arguing that this is rhetorical support for Hamas and Governor DeSantis of the State of Florida ordered the removal of support for state universities. It’s… it triggered a lawsuit against the ACLU. Governor Polis, what do you think?
GOVERNMENT POLIS: So, Margaret, thank you by the way for delving into one of the most controversial topics facing us today, because if we can disagree better on Israel and Palestine, we can better disagree on All. And that’s a great example and a great lens to see it through. Part of the goal is to get people to stop yelling at others. Whatever the issue, whether it’s abortion, Israel, Palestine, the border, or immigration, stop shouting, start talking and listening. And it’s the same with this problem. RIGHT? So there are a lot of people shouting at each other. And it is now their right, provided they do not engage in violence or intimidation. It’s… it’s their right. But I think everyone can have a more productive conversation if we try to get in the same room. What does Gaza look like after October 6? Who governs it? How can we have security commitments to the Palestinian people and the Israeli people? I think almost everyone who is pro-Israel cares deeply about the Palestinian people. A large majority of people who favor Palestinian independence believe that there should be a Jewish state and that Jews have a role in being in Israel. So how can we have these conversations rather than yelling at each other about what is absolutely one of the most controversial issues of our time, both on campus and in the broader community?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, we’ll see where this specific lawsuit goes. On… you mentioned the border. It’s certainly also – I question the principle and I want – I want more civility, but tell me how to proceed on some of these things. Because I know the president was in Colorado last week, you’re concerned in your state about rising migration. I understand that you also bused migrants to certain cities in New York and Chicago, which earned you harsh letters from the mayors of those cities. How was this different from what Governor Abbott was doing in Texas? And how can you get along better with your fellow governors on this point?
GOVERNMENT POLIS: Yeah, again, I’m happy to talk about politics. Our role in Colorado was to help people get where they wanted to go. We’re just north of Texas, people are coming in and obviously we’re not going to detain them in Colorado. We have had about 2,000 or 3,000 Venezuelan refugees settled in our state. Tens of thousands of people have left where they are going. But again, I think, first of all, how can we talk about better border security? Democrats want it, Republicans want it, President Biden proposed it. I hope Congress will act and actually fund better border security. The downside is that it’s not easy. This is not a sound clip. It’s not a flashy wall. It is a thoughtful, high-tech approach to border security, asylum reforms and immigration in general. There are a lot of similarities. In fact, with Governor Cox, we were able to successfully start, through the National Governors Association, a gubernatorial task force on immigration. Six Democrats, six Republicans, we agree on principles around border security and immigration reform that will hopefully serve as an example to Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Governor Cox, quickly, have you gotten a response to some of these Congressional proposals?
GOVERNMENT COX: Yes, we will release them shortly, and we will release them publicly. But this is a perfect example, again, a very controversial issue. We get Republicans and Democrats in a room and we start debating it. That’s not the case – it’s not about agreeing on everything. It’s not about being nicer to each other, although we certainly need that. It’s really about disagreeing productively and finding common ground. We found immense common ground. We’re still working on some details, but we’re getting very close.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will monitor that. Governors, please disagree better. We appreciate that.
GOVERNMENT COX: Thank you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we’ll be back in a moment.
